Winding wire information needed!

[mod_o_matic]

Hey,
Well, i am going to start winding my own motors again..main problem is finding a good thickness (guage) of wire to wrap! Sooo...

Can some one please give me a list of motors and what wire they use? I am looking for at least:

S02
PlasmaDash
Tourqe Tunned
X-speed
Iwaver Pro

If i can get at least on i would be very happy

[pimpsmurf]

winding 130 size motors or what?
22 gauge silver magnet wire is fantastic. Gets awful hot since there is next to no resistance.

The Bigger the wire, the more torque. The more winds of the wire, the more torque.

-JNY

[mod_o_matic]

winding 130 size motors or what?
22 gauge silver magnet wire is fantastic. Gets awful hot since there is next to no resistance.

The Bigger the wire, the more torque. The more winds of the wire, the more torque.

-JNY

I know that (the stuff about bigger wire) and so i just want to see what these motors use..

Where did you get the silver wire from?

[stagg]

winding 130 size motors or what?
22 gauge silver magnet wire is fantastic. Gets awful hot since there is next to no resistance.

The Bigger the wire, the more torque. The more winds of the wire, the more torque.

-JNY

I know that (the stuff about bigger wire) and so i just want to see what these motors use..

Where did you get the silver wire from?

Hopefully PH2T will pop up in this thread, he is the god of motors.

[pimpsmurf]

God of motors? NAY! The God of electronic mortals!

Silver motor wire (high-temp enamel(sp?) insulated wire [aka magnet wire]) can be obtained from undergroundxmods.com. That is the only place I've run across it, but I haven't really looked that hard.

-JNY

[mod_o_matic]

God of motors? NAY! The God of electronic mortals!

Silver motor wire (high-temp enamel(sp?) insulated wire [aka magnet wire]) can be obtained from undergroundxmods.com. That is the only place I've run across it, but I haven't really looked that hard.

-JNY

Thanks..sights being a bitch to me...how much did you get and how much did it cost?

[codesuidae]

Sorry to jump in late here, but if you want magnet wire, don't go to resellers, go to a supplier. Somebody like:

http://www.wiretron.com/magnet.html

http://www.parawire.com/

Sure, their HTML skills are very 1990's, but if you need wire they can hook you up, so to speak. Most of these places carry copper, silver and a number of other alloys and insulations as well. Many of them will set you up with some samples or give you advice about motor winding if you need it.

Best service is to just pick up the phone and call them, thats how they do most of their business and thats how you'll get the best service from them.

If you don't want to pay shipping its usually not hard to find a wire suppler in your city. Most any city of any reasonable size will have a motor shop with a huge rack of spools of wire. They don't usualy carry speciality stuff like sliver wire though. But if you're a sociable kinda person it often pays to make friends with the local vendors.

[cj]

Sorry didn't see this earlier

From the XMODS FAQ

Motors: (thanks to neurokinetik at tinyrc.com)
Stage 1: 85 turns, wire thickness is less than 30 gauge. Probably 32 or 34.
Stage 2: 49 turns, 30 gauge.
X Speed: 49 turns, 30 gauge.
Crest Spin Brush: 70 turn of ~ 32 gauge

Are you still looking for this info?

[pimpsmurf]

Sorry to jump in late here, but if you want magnet wire, don't go to resellers, go to a supplier. Somebody like:

http://www.wiretron.com/magnet.html

http://www.parawire.com/

Sure, their HTML skills are very 1990's, but if you need wire they can hook you up, so to speak. Most of these places carry copper, silver and a number of other alloys and insulations as well. Many of them will set you up with some samples or give you advice about motor winding if you need it.

Best service is to just pick up the phone and call them, thats how they do most of their business and thats how you'll get the best service from them.

If you don't want to pay shipping its usually not hard to find a wire suppler in your city. Most any city of any reasonable size will have a motor shop with a huge rack of spools of wire. They don't usualy carry speciality stuff like sliver wire though. But if you're a sociable kinda person it often pays to make friends with the local vendors.

They sell silver magnet wire? Cause that stuff is the shiznit.

-JNY

[codesuidae]

They sell silver magnet wire? Cause that stuff is the shiznit.

Yes, they do. However, silver wire is vastly more expensive than copper. For example, a 10lb spool of 30 guage copper wire with the high temp (220C) insulation will run you about $250. The same spool using 99.99% silver wire will run you about $7000. The cost difference is partially in economy of scale, nobody uses sliver, so its more expensive, and partily just in the fact that you are buying a precious metal by the pound.

30 guage copper wire has a resistance of 0.1037 ohms per foot. Silver will get you 0.0956 ohms per foot. So, assuming you use something on the order of 70 inches for a motor winding, you'll get a DC resistance of 0.605 ohms with copper, and 0.558 ohms with silver. With a 7volt battery you'll get 11.57A with copper and 12.54A with silver, or about an 8% increase in current. Not a hell of a lot, but possibly desirable.

The problem is that stocking the stuff is really darn expensive. If you can find a supplier to sell you a one pound spool you're still looking at an investment of nearly $1000 for an upgrade that might not make you that much money (depends on the market, how much will people pay for the motors, and how long will it take you to rewind them, how many will buy, etc). For most people it just isn't worth the trouble.

[betty.k]

hmmm, methinks it might be worth talking to a jeweler about silver wire.
my uncle was one and he had lotsa machines that roll metals into any guage you could want.
that way you could just buy what you need

[codesuidae]

hmmm, methinks it might be worth talking to a jeweler about silver wire.
my uncle was one and he had lotsa machines that roll metals into any guage you could want.
that way you could just buy what you need

Maybe, but insulating it would be a bitch. You'd have to get a uniform dielectric coating onto a pretty good length of wire. The standard coatings are good for up to 480 degrees F and about 2300v for single coat. Thats usually Teflon or Kapton coating. Most of the stuff you can buy at the hardware store is going to be polyester or polyurethane, which is only going to be good for maybe 300degF. If you're looking for performance you'd be better off using copper with the high temp insulation and craming more current through it. Since it'll handle running hotter before the insulation breaks down you'll be able to run more power that the sliver wire.

[betty.k]

oops! forgot about that insulation thing!
but it's still worth asking, jewellers are crafty devils! you'd be surprised what they can do

[pimpsmurf]

Dude. you are missing the point on the silver motor wire.

Yes, you only get around 1 amp difference with the silver, however DC motor's power is measured in EMF (Electro-Motive Force, in this example). EMF is measured in Amp-turns. a Amp turn is 1 amp run through 1 turn on a coil. 1 amp isn't that much, until you look at having 27 more ATs of EMF on a 27 turn motor. That is a good bit more power. PX has 72 inches of motor wire pretty cheap. If you have a 21 turn, 22ga copper motor, and a motor with 19 turns of silver, 22 gauge, you will have slightly higher current draw with the same amount of torque, BUT you will have a higher top speed because of less double rotating mass. Correct?

Silver motor wire is definately better. If only we could get some smaller wire. 22ga is overkill I think. maybe some 28-30 would be rad. Then again, I'll bet 22ga could handle a 3s lipo pack. I'm hoping so, because an X2LSPE will be going in my MZM as soon as ph2t gets off his bum and mails the final peice to the puzzle! I have a 3 cell 850mah polyquest pack (known for it's long, burst-current capabilities), from b-p-p.com coming. A 500 mah 1-4cell charger from (cry) batteryspace.com, and already have the lithium protector (need to go LED hunting, but I've got a week or two before everything is here. Then my MZM is going to own all)

-JNY

-JNY

[codesuidae]

Dude. you are missing the point on the silver motor wire.

I don't think so. The point is to get more current through the motor.

a Amp turn is 1 amp run through 1 turn on a coil. 1 amp isn't that much, until you look at having 27 more ATs of EMF on a 27 turn motor. That is a good bit more power.

Its a linear relationship, 10% more current, 10% more torque.

If you have a 21 turn, 22ga copper motor, and a motor with 19 turns of silver, 22 gauge, you will have slightly higher current draw with the same amount of torque, BUT you will have a higher top speed because of less double rotating mass. Correct?

When you change the number of turns you'll be reducing the torque constant of the motor, but at the same time you'll be increasing the current by changing the resistance of the coil. Going from 21 turns to 19 turns would reduce the motor torque by about 10%. To compensate for this loss you must push more current through the motor to get the same torque. You can do this either by raising the voltage supplied to the motor by 10%, or by increasing the conductivity of the coil by 10%. Switching to silver increases conductivity by 8.7%, which puts you pretty close to the original output torque.

The top speed of the motor is determined by the voltage constant of the the motor, which is essentially the reciprocal of the torque constant. Decrease the torque constant by removing windings, and you also reduce the back EMF generated by the motor, which means the motor runs faster. Not because of the weight of the armature, but because you've changed the back EMF constant by removing windings.

Since sliver is about 20% denser than copper, and you are removing only about 10% of the winding length, you will actually be increasing the weight of the armature. Depending on how that weight is distributed, you might end up with a moment of inertia that is the same or greater than the copper armature with more turns. With the same gauge and turns the silver armature will always have a greater moment of inertia.

The only thing the armature mass will effect is how quickly the motor can change velocity (or the torque required to genereate a given change in velocity).

If you compare the difference in moment of inertia between a silver coil motor and a copper coil motor to what you've got in wheels, you'd probably find that the difference it is completely swamped. To get a feel for this, disconnect the motor from the transmission and time how long it takes it to get from stop to top speed, or top speed to stop. Its probably nearly instant. The motors rotational inertia is usually swamped by that of the meats hanging off the transmission. Varies by motor though.

I'm not sure how many inches of wire this is per turn, so I'll ball-park it and say that we're averaging about 2 inches of wire per turn.

22AWG copper is about 0.071grams and 0.00135 ohms per inch.
22AWG silver is about 0.086 grams and 0.00124 ohms per inch.

Code: Select all

                  Length    Mass    Resistance
21t Copper   42"        2.98g     0.0567 (baseline)
19t Copper   38"        2.70g     0.0513 (11% improvement)
19t Silver     38"        3.27g     0.0471 (20% improvement)

Silver motor wire is definately better.

Looks that way. Basicly, if you do it right, by using silver wire you can maintain the torque of the motor while increasing top speed by something under 10%. Or you could keep the same top speed and increase motor torque. Or you could keep the same performance parameters and reduce your input voltage.